Curse

draxynnic · Aug 09, 2009, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

I wouldnt so much as to say that. What would you prefer, bless your people with the gift of invincibilty and pass their legacy into ledgend and beyond; or take a sword through the chest by a Destroyer of Flesh?

The stone dwarves aren't invincible, though - just less vincible, and only as individuals. As a race... lack of reproduction and lack of true immortality/invincibility bites. Sooner or later, attrition will take its toll and the last one will fall.

Neo Atomisk · Aug 10, 2009, 04:15 AM // 04:15

The theory about the Stone Summit negotiating with the Destroyers is absolutely absurd. The Destroyers cares for nothing except destroying and following Primordus. I doubt the Destroyers would even understand the Dwarves anyways. In the game, Destroyers aggro against -ANYTHING- that is within their aggro bubble, save untouchable NPCs of course. (Although I can't think of any in the presence of destroyers.)

I'm also pretty sure that the movement said something along the lines of "there are a few remaining dwarves residing in caves or far-off places, but most consider them to be simply myths or legends".

draxynnic · Aug 10, 2009, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

The theory about the Stone Summit negotiating with the Destroyers is absolutely absurd. The Destroyers cares for nothing except destroying and following Primordus. I doubt the Destroyers would even understand the Dwarves anyways. In the game, Destroyers aggro against -ANYTHING- that is within their aggro bubble, save untouchable NPCs of course. (Although I can't think of any in the presence of destroyers.)

You're missing an important point:

Just because all the evidence we have suggests that the Stone Summit couldn't have succeeded doesn't mean they knew that. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the Stone Summit had realised that the final showdown was coming, they were effectively staring at the extinction of their race whether they won or lost. Attempting to Take A Third Option, however insane it may be or unlikely to succeed, is entirely understandable under the circumstances. (Of course, understanding your enemy's reasoning doesn't stop them from being enemies, although it can be the first step towards negotiating a settlement.)

Since I think I've had to explain this a couple of times, let me state it again:

The hypothesis is that the Stone Summit may have been attempting to find a way to cut a deal with the Great Destroyer. There is nothing to suggest that they succeeded in doing so or even that it was possible to succeed.

reaper with no name · Aug 10, 2009, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Why does everyone assume that Ogden went through the ritual? If he wasn't willing to go through it when he first had the chance, why on earth would he do so after the Great Destroyer was gone, and the stone dwarves that had already been made were busy eradicating the other destroyers? If he was going to go through the ritual at all, logic dictates he would have done it with everyone else.

Now, that's not to say that the dwarven race survives through small pockets of dwarves such as he (it's entirely possible that the entire dwarven race devotes itself to the destruction of the destroyers, and only the stony ones end up surviving), but it doesn't prove they don't. All we know is that based on what has been told to us so far, the only dwarves we are likely to see is the stony kind.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 10, 2009, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Ogden says himself he will at a later time. It probably wasn't done so that he as a hero wouldn't change, and thus would not pose possible spoilers for those who have not gotten that far when they party with someone who brings Ogden and has.

As for why do it later, perhaps because it is supposed to be the work of their god. Devout people do illogical things all the time. And as yourself said "it's entirely possible that the entire dwarven race devotes itself to the destruction o the destroyers" - if they all wanted to kill the destroyers, why wouldn't they under go the rite eventually?

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 10, 2009, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

and I think Primordus is the true Great Destroyer

I absolutely agree with your statement. I have some thoughts and some quotations from in-game, which can prove that more or less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by High Priest Alkar

Long ago, the Great Dwarf took from his greatest foe the one thing that give him his power...he took from him his name, sealing it away until the time of their final battle.

To ensure the name was unspeakable to all but the Great Dwarf, the name was sealed within the Rubicon. There are few left with the knowledge and power to open the Tome.

If the true name of either is spoken aloud, it would mean the end of the world as we know it. We must not allow that which is unknown to again become known. Not now.

The Great Destroyer is reputed to be everything the Great Dwarf is not...evil, malicious, and greedy to the core.

If that Hierophant reads the Great Destroyer's true name, he will summon upon this world the most malignant creaure ever seen by mortal eyes.

First, the "Great Destroyer" we defeat in the game, has no other name than that. And if it would be his true name, than Alkar would've summoned it several times while we are doing the quest.

Secondly, he says it is the most "malignant creature ever seen by mortal eyes". The Great Destroyer was one of Primordus' general.

A major thought/speculation:
-Although, Alkar didn't know about Abaddon at that time, I would say that the God of Secrets was the most malignant creature. And the Great Destroyer didn't seem 'too evil', I mean it just followed the orders of its master, it was a spawn, not a creature with free will.

I think it was the Great Dwarf, a previous diety, who sealed Primordus within the Depths.

There's one thing I don't understand about this topic. How could the Great Dwarf strip the power of his foe, by taking his name?

So the dwarves work is unfinished, they will have to fight the most serious and brutal battle ever seen in GW verse.

Free Runner · Aug 10, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

First, the "Great Destroyer" we defeat in the game, has no other name than that.

Erm...if nobody knows its true name then it would obviously only be called the Great Destroyer. Because...nobody knew its real name so they called it by the name it was given.....

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Secondly, he says it is the most "malignant creature ever seen by mortal eyes".

And it is. The Great Destroyer and the Destroyers are one, and they act like a disease spreading throughout Tyria and destroying everything they come into contact with.

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-Although, Alkar didn't know about Abaddon at that time, I would say that the God of Secrets was the most malignant creature. And the Great Destroyer didn't seem 'too evil', I mean it just followed the orders of its master, it was a spawn, not a creature with free will.

Abaddon wasnt a typical creature though he was a god from who knows where. As for the Great Destroyer not being too evil....one of its purposes was to clear Tyria of life....destroy all other beings without being provoked at all. Generally that would be on a level of evil. Abaddon at least had a reason for wanting to get revenge.....the Great Destroyer just sends them out.

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I think it was the Great Dwarf, a previous diety, who sealed Primordus within the Depths.

And the other four dragons?

If the Great Dwarf did battle Primordus and in turn named him the Great Destroyer, why didnt the Tome of Rubicon make mention of the fact there was more than one "Great Destroyer" - five infact.

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There's one thing I don't understand about this topic. How could the Great Dwarf strip the power of his foe, by taking his name?

This all depends on if the part about the name is really true or had another meaning.

I personally dont believe Primordus was the real Great Destroyer. Despite many saying it didnt, the Great Destroyer found in the depths lived up to the prophecy. The only part that still doesnt fit is the whole name idea - i still think that it had another meaning.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 10, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Erm...if nobody knows its true name then it would obviously only be called the Great Destroyer. Because...nobody knew its real name so they called it by the name it was given.....

Yes, but it eventually arose. So, if the dwarves are right about the Great Destroyer, then somebody had spoken it's 'true name'. And here's the problem with your theory. Together, with Alcar we arrived just in time. We claimed it before Hierophant Morlog could speak it's name. And Alkar had a quotation about opening the Tome:

Quote:

Originally Posted by High Priest Alkar

To ensure the name was unspeakable to all but the Great Dwarf, the name was sealed within the Rubicon. There are few left with the knowledge and power to open the Tome.

Aside from Morlog (and other hierophants) and Alkar we know no other people/dwarf who could open it. If Alkar was so curious, devout and foolish to open it - because he believed they must fulfill their destiny, which I highly doubt - then there would be no possible explanation for the "Great Destroyer's" rise.

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And it is. The Great Destroyer and the Destroyers are one, and they act like a disease spreading throughout Tyria and destroying everything they come into contact with.

Yes, but I've already known that. The "Great Destroyer" is the most powerful general of Primordus. I raised the possibility that Primordus and the Great Destroyer had some kind of bond or link, so the Ancient Dragon could easily give orders through his general. After his "voice" was no more, he could give no more orders, because the Great Destroyer had the connection to all the other Destroyers.

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Abaddon wasnt a typical creature though he was a god from who knows where. As for the Great Destroyer not being too evil....one of its purposes was to clear Tyria of life....destroy all other beings without being provoked at all. Generally that would be on a level of evil. Abaddon at least had a reason for wanting to get revenge.....the Great Destroyer just sends them out.

Abaddon wanted revenge and thus he became corrupted and more evil than he was before. As I mentioned above, if they shared that link/bond with the "Great Destroyer", then it was Primordus who wanted too "to clear Tyria of life".

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And the other four dragons?

If the Great Dwarf did battle Primordus and in turn named him the Great Destroyer, why didnt the Tome of Rubicon make mention of the fact there was more than one "Great Destroyer" - five infact.

I highly doubt that. Although, it can still be possible. But what if the Ancient Dragons went to sleep at different times? Just like they awake. So the Great Dwarf met only Primordus. And the dwarves had known the tale of the Great Destroyer since ancient times, so they could have some pictures(?) or descriptions about them. But they didn't have those from the "Great Destroyer". After all, only the Great Dwarf saw it.

I've got two more "evidence" to prove the right about my theory. However they are weaker than the above ones.

The Scyring Pool in EotN warnes us two times about Primordus. More precisely, the second and the last vision. The main point is the last: you can see the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers as they "hail" Primordus.
Now we know that the Great Destroyer is his general. The dwarves thought that they've found their arch enemy, because it was in the vision and it looked similar to its minions, but larger. And they thought that the dragon encased in the stone is only a magical statue=>we know that it's Primordus, but it's possible that the Dwarves thought they are there because of the statue is bleeding magic, and the "Great Destroyer" could create more minions.

The second is the geographical location. If the legend is true about the Great Dwarf as he had forged his own people on Anvil Rock, then he was close to Primordus' sleeping ground. It's my weakest evidence, although it's possible, that after he'd met his arch enemy, he went to the Rock. (Or before.)

It is a hypothesis and a strong speculation, but I don't think that the creature we defeat in A Time for Heroes is the Great Destroyer.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 10, 2009, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

And the other four dragons?

If the Great Dwarf did battle Primordus and in turn named him the Great Destroyer, why didnt the Tome of Rubicon make mention of the fact there was more than one "Great Destroyer" - five infact.

If they decided to call all five "Great Destoyers" - I think it would be easier to just call them "Destroyers" and call their minions something else. It is possible the other dragons had other nicknames - or there was no need to give them such nicknames, assuming the name thing is true. Whether or not the name part is true, I am unsure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

This all depends on if the part about the name is really true or had another meaning.

It could be that it wasn't sealing the name, but instead sealing the power, and the release of the seal was the name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I personally dont believe Primordus was the real Great Destroyer. Despite many saying it didnt, the Great Destroyer found in the depths lived up to the prophecy. The only part that still doesnt fit is the whole name idea - i still think that it had another meaning.

Despite living up to the prophecy, I find it hard to believe that a god or god-like being was evenly matched with the Great Destroyer, which was easier than a chained god. Game mechanically speaking or Lore speaking...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Yes, but it eventually arose. So, if the dwarves are right about the Great Destroyer, then somebody had spoken it's 'true name'. And here's the problem with your theory.

Unless! The Great Destroyer is not the Great Destroyer. Which means the one we fought would have popped up at any time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Aside from Morlog (and other hierophants) and Alkar we know no other people/dwarf who could open it. If Alkar was so curious, devout and foolish to open it - because he believed they must fulfill their destiny, which I highly doubt - then there would be no possible explanation for the "Great Destroyer's" rise.

He did open it, and read it, but never spoke the name. Or so we know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Abaddon wanted revenge and thus he became corrupted and more evil than he was before. As I mentioned above, if they shared that link/bond with the "Great Destroyer", then it was Primordus who wanted too "to clear Tyria of life".

There may be a bond, but that would mean the "Great Destroyer" was an extension of Primordus, so it is wanting to clear Tyria of life, but also isn't, as it wouldn't be it's own will - but then again, there may very well be no will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The Scyring Pool in EotN warnes us two times about Primordus. More precisely, the second and the last vision. The main point is the last: you can see the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers as they "hail" Primordus.

Er... the "Great Destroyer" is not hailing Primordus, but creating the Destroyers...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Now we know that the Great Destroyer is his general. The dwarves thought that they've found their arch enemy, because it was in the vision and it looked similar to its minions, but larger. And they thought that the dragon encased in the stone is only a magical statue=>we know that it's Primordus, but it's possible that the Dwarves thought they are there because of the statue is bleeding magic, and the "Great Destroyer" could create more minions.

This actually is a bit better case than what you said before...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The second is the geographical location. If the legend is true about the Great Dwarf as he had forged his own people on Anvil Rock, then he was close to Primordus' sleeping ground. It's my weakest evidence, although it's possible, that after he'd met his arch enemy, he went to the Rock. (Or before.)

I doubt the two locations are connected in any way.

Gmr Leon · Aug 10, 2009, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The "Great Destroyer" is the most powerful general of Primordus. I raised the possibility that Primordus and the Great Destroyer had some kind of bond or link, so the Ancient Dragon could easily give orders through his general. After his "voice" was no more, he could give no more orders, because the Great Destroyer had the connection to all the other Destroyers.

Er..Anyone who was paying attention to the last parts of Eye of the North's story would have known that it's a confirmed fact the two had a link.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Abaddon wanted revenge and thus he became corrupted and more evil than he was before.

Assuming that he was even evil to begin with, but that's another topic entirely..One that oddly hasn't arose on this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I highly doubt that. Although, it can still be possible. But what if the Ancient Dragons went to sleep at different times? Just like they awake. So the Great Dwarf met only Primordus. And the dwarves had known the tale of the Great Destroyer since ancient times, so they could have some pictures(?) or descriptions about them. But they didn't have those from the "Great Destroyer". After all, only the Great Dwarf saw it.

Except that by your own idea, the real Great Destroyer would be Primordus, and it wouldn't have been put to sleep, but knocked out by the Great Dwarf. The rest of your post, I have no idea what you're trying to convey, except that the Dwarves wouldn't have a definite idea of what the real Great Destroyer would look like.

Also, let's just say that Primordus was the Great Destroyer. Alright? Alright. Now, according to Dwarven prophecy, if the Great Destroyer's name is spoken, it will be the end of the world, and according to Alkar, it will bring about the most malignant creature ever seen by mortal eyes. So..By that, we have a major issue. What we know of as the Great Destroyer in-game, was apparently supposed to act as some sort of alarm clock for Primordus, which by killing it, was the equivalent of smashing Primordus's alarm clock.

Well..If the Great Destroyer encountered in-game was supposed to wake up Primordus a few centuries early, and Primordus is the "real" Great Destroyer, and the Dwarven prophecies are completely accurate, that would imply that the Great Destroyer knew the name of the "real" Great Destroyer, Primordus.

But..Either way we look at this we have one incredible issue: Who spoke the true name of the Great Destroyer? In other words, "Will the speaker of the True Name of the Great Destroyer please stand up?"

Free Runner · Aug 10, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Yes, but it eventually arose. So, if the dwarves are right about the Great Destroyer, then somebody had spoken it's 'true name'. And here's the problem with your theory. Together, with Alcar we arrived just in time. We claimed it before Hierophant Morlog could speak it's name.

You forgot that the original prophecy said the Great Destroyer would arrive once again in the future. Never is it said the name alone would cause it to rise, and only through that way would it appear. As was revealed, the Great Destroyers main task was to wake Primordus - so he was going to arrive name or no name.

When Alkar told us about the name being unspeakable he himself had no idea about the Great Destroyers foretold arrival. He only learned of the battle between the Dwarves and the Destroyers after finally going back to the basilica and taking the book back.

Quote:

Yes, but I've already known that. The "Great Destroyer" is the most powerful general of Primordus. I raised the possibility that Primordus and the Great Destroyer had some kind of bond or link, so the Ancient Dragon could easily give orders through his general. After his "voice" was no more, he could give no more orders, because the Great Destroyer had the connection to all the other Destroyers.

Okay...but it still stands....the Great Destroyer was a malignant creature and it had never been seen by mortals.

Quote:

The Scyring Pool in EotN warnes us two times about Primordus. More precisely, the second and the last vision. The main point is the last: you can see the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers as they "hail" Primordus.
Now we know that the Great Destroyer is his general. The dwarves thought that they've found their arch enemy, because it was in the vision and it looked similar to its minions, but larger. And they thought that the dragon encased in the stone is only a magical statue=>we know that it's Primordus, but it's possible that the Dwarves thought they are there because of the statue is bleeding magic, and the "Great Destroyer" could create more minions.

Actually the Scrying Pools vision moves a couple of times around the cavern eventually focusing on the Great Destroyer. Nobody knew where that cavern was until it showed the dragon causing Vekk to realise. So i could argue that the Eye showed Primordus not to warn us about him but to show us where the Great Destroyer was. After all thats what the heros main focus is when using the Scrying Pool.

As for the hailing part - if i remember correctly its where the Destroyers face the Great Destroyer and cheer/roar (or whatever Destroyers do to show victory). The Great Destroyer is facing them the whole time and when they begin to move off he turns to the statue and roars. Not much hailing of Primordus there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Despite living up to the prophecy, I find it hard to believe that a god or god-like being was evenly matched with the Great Destroyer, which was easier than a chained god. Game mechanically speaking or Lore speaking...

Well stepping around the whole "What is the Great Dwarf" issue i'll throw out two of my theories regarding the original battle.

The first is that the "Great Destroyer" is just a name for the general of Primordus. What i mean by this is that the Great Destroyer we fought was a different Great Destroyer than the first which the Great Dwarf fought. If i'm correct on this, it would mean a third Great Destroyer will appear in GW2. I wont hold out for that though.

The second and the one i think most plausable is that the Great Dwarf fought all of the Destroyers together. The Destroyers after all are just extentions of the Great Destroyer, and all together could simply be reffered to as "The Great Destroyer".

Its never indicated that Dwarves took part in the first battle - half of them dont believe the Great Dwarf vs Great Destroyer myth until the arrival of the Destroyers. So i believe they were created after the fight with the Great Destroyer.

So imagine how hard it would be for one god-like dwarf (though we still dont know what exactly he is) to fight all the Destroyers plus the Great Destroyer. Remember that all togther they would be immensely powerful and they would think and act like one. It would indeed be a titanic struggle eh?

Think about how the Great Dwarf acts in the second battle - all the dwarves being the Great Dwarf. It could of been he gave them that power due to his first encounter with the Great Destroyer.

Of course thats a far stretch on the great Dwarf power thing but i refuse to beileve the Great Dwarf using a power thats similiar to the Great Destroyers hive mind was coincidental.

draxynnic · Aug 11, 2009, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Ogden says himself he will at a later time. It probably wasn't done so that he as a hero wouldn't change, and thus would not pose possible spoilers for those who have not gotten that far when they party with someone who brings Ogden and has.

As for why do it later, perhaps because it is supposed to be the work of their god. Devout people do illogical things all the time. And as yourself said "it's entirely possible that the entire dwarven race devotes itself to the destruction o the destroyers" - if they all wanted to kill the destroyers, why wouldn't they under go the rite eventually?

Another theory I have is that once the Ritual was completed once, it affected all the Dwarves regardless of whether they were actually there or not. (After all, did Jalis really bring the entire Deldrimnor nation into the Far North Shiverpeaks? It's possible that that was it after the long civil war, but it strikes me as unlikely.) Ogden and others were able to hold it off, but this could have been a matter of having the willpower to hold it off until they eventually succumbed rather than the ritual being something that has to be done deliberately. Otherwise... well, surely the war effort wouldn't be harmed by keeping a breeding population as flesh and blood and having volunteers from that population undergo the Ritual on an individual (or squad, or whatever the minimum number is) basis?

As for the thing about the Great Destroyer being awakened by its name... remember that this quest comes before the Tome was opened and read, so it's probably coming down through Dwarven legend and has had a chance to be corrupted a few times. It's possible that even though the Great Destroyer that the Great Dwarf fought was in fact the same we fought, the name thing was in fact referring to some other threat - possibly Primordus or even Abaddon - that got blurred with the Great Destroyer over time.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 11, 2009, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Er... the "Great Destroyer" is not hailing Primordus, but creating the Destroyers...

Then watch it again, because your memory fails this time:
We can see as the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers roar, then the camera starts to zoom out starting from above the head of the GD. A little bit later we can see as the Great Destroyer turnes its long neck upwards and left.
He is not creating Destroyers, that's 100%. Maybe the Destroyer hail the Great Destroyer, or they are "celebrating"/cherring their upcoming victory (as they thought it will come), but I don't think it would be the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Er..Anyone who was paying attention to the last parts of Eye of the North's story would have known that it's a confirmed fact the two had a link.

Then it's more than a possibility, but prove your statement, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Except that by your own idea, the real Great Destroyer would be Primordus, and it wouldn't have been put to sleep, but knocked out by the Great Dwarf. The rest of your post, I have no idea what you're trying to convey, except that the Dwarves wouldn't have a definite idea of what the real Great Destroyer would look like.

Sorry, it was tired and already apologized for any mistakes ^^
But I was trying to say, that the Dragons might have went to sleep at different times. So, the Great Dwarf's possible location would be the Northern Shiverpeaks. When Primordus arrived, they started to fight, and somehow the Great Dwarf "sealed his name", thus stripping its power. It's possible, that the "Great Dwarf knocked out Primordus", but we can't know that for sure. IF Primordus is really the true Great Destroyer, of course.
The second part of my theory was about the depiction or description of Destroyers. After all, only the Great Dwarf saw the real Great Destroyer. And if the dwarves had some description about the Destroyers from the legendary tale, they could've easily thought that Primordus' large general is their arch enemy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Also, let's just say that Primordus was the Great Destroyer. Alright? Alright. Now, according to Dwarven prophecy, if the Great Destroyer's name is spoken, it will be the end of the world, and according to Alkar, it will bring about the most malignant creature ever seen by mortal eyes. So..By that, we have a major issue. What we know of as the Great Destroyer in-game, was apparently supposed to act as some sort of alarm clock for Primordus, which by killing it, was the equivalent of smashing Primordus's alarm clock.

Well..If the Great Destroyer encountered in-game was supposed to wake up Primordus a few centuries early, and Primordus is the "real" Great Destroyer, and the Dwarven prophecies are completely accurate, that would imply that the Great Destroyer knew the name of the "real" Great Destroyer, Primordus.

But..Either way we look at this we have one incredible issue: Who spoke the true name of the Great Destroyer? In other words, "Will the speaker of the True Name of the Great Destroyer please stand up?"

I have to agree with this conception.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

You forgot that the original prophecy said the Great Destroyer would arrive once again in the future. Never is it said the name alone would cause it to rise, and only through that way would it appear. As was revealed, the Great Destroyers main task was to wake Primordus - so he was going to arrive name or no name.

When Alkar told us about the name being unspeakable he himself had no idea about the Great Destroyers foretold arrival. He only learned of the battle between the Dwarves and the Destroyers after finally going back to the basilica and taking the book back.

Okay, you're more or less right about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Actually the Scrying Pools vision moves a couple of times around the cavern eventually focusing on the Great Destroyer. Nobody knew where that cavern was until it showed the dragon causing Vekk to realise. So i could argue that the Eye showed Primordus not to warn us about him but to show us where the Great Destroyer was. After all thats what the heros main focus is when using the Scrying Pool.

As for the hailing part - if i remember correctly its where the Destroyers face the Great Destroyer and cheer/roar (or whatever Destroyers do to show victory). The Great Destroyer is facing them the whole time and when they begin to move off he turns to the statue and roars. Not much hailing of Primordus there.

I suggest you do the same as Konig.

On the main topic about undergoing the Rite, I think Draxynnic's conception is the truth.

Free Runner · Aug 11, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

As for the thing about the Great Destroyer being awakened by its name... remember that this quest comes before the Tome was opened and read, so it's probably coming down through Dwarven legend and has had a chance to be corrupted a few times. It's possible that even though the Great Destroyer that the Great Dwarf fought was in fact the same we fought, the name thing was in fact referring to some other threat - possibly Primordus or even Abaddon - that got blurred with the Great Destroyer over time.

I personally think it is this passage or a passage like it that caused the name belief.

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Originally Posted by Tome of Rubicon

The Great Destroyer has been cast down into the Depths. Never again shall its name be uttered, lest it rise up and bring ruin down upon the world.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I suggest you do the same as Konig

You mean watch the cutscene? oh i did and it was exactly as i described it. The Destroyers are facing the Great Destroyer not Primordus. Infact theres about three or four Destroyers turned towards the Great Destroyer who nearly have their backs to Primordus. The only one that acknowledges him is the Great Destroyer - and we already know why that is.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 11, 2009, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Then watch it again, because your memory fails this time:
We can see as the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers roar, then the camera starts to zoom out starting from above the head of the GD. A little bit later we can see as the Great Destroyer turnes its long neck upwards and left.
He is not creating Destroyers, that's 100%. Maybe the Destroyer hail the Great Destroyer, or they are "celebrating"/cherring their upcoming victory (as they thought it will come), but I don't think it would be the case.

I think you and I are thinking of two different cinematics. I was thinking of Vision 2 and 3 (at least, in 2 I know they were created, 3, not sure).

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

But I was trying to say, that the Dragons might have went to sleep at different times. So, the Great Dwarf's possible location would be the Northern Shiverpeaks. When Primordus arrived, they started to fight, and somehow the Great Dwarf "sealed his name", thus stripping its power. It's possible, that the "Great Dwarf knocked out Primordus", but we can't know that for sure. IF Primordus is really the true Great Destroyer, of course.

I'll bring up again that I don't think that the name was literally stripped, but is more of hidden and is the word that would unseal the Great Destroyer's power. As for the Ancient Dragons on a hole scale part - I don't think Primordus "arrived" and we must put into the account of the fact that the Ancient Dragons were around in pre-history. If anything, the Great Dwarf was created after Primordus. Or at a similar time, but still at such an ancient time - and would also mean that there was a vast amount of time between Primordus' fall and the birth of the Dwarves. The time difference is the biggest flaw in the belief that Primordus is the true "Great Destroyer" (of course, there could be the fact that neither Primordus or the Great Destroyer are the "true Great Destroyer").

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The second part of my theory was about the depiction or description of Destroyers. After all, only the Great Dwarf saw the real Great Destroyer. And if the dwarves had some description about the Destroyers from the legendary tale, they could've easily thought that Primordus' large general is their arch enemy.

This is possible, but then they could also think any draconic being would be the Great Destroyer - assuming they have a fiery look about them. (closest thing I can think of that we know of would be Obsidian Drakes from the Fissure of Woe)

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 11, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

You mean watch the cutscene? oh i did and it was exactly as i described it. The Destroyers are facing the Great Destroyer not Primordus. Infact theres about three or four Destroyers turned towards the Great Destroyer who nearly have their backs to Primordus. The only one that acknowledges him is the Great Destroyer - and we already know why that is.

And that's the point. Sorry for stretching it (with all the Destroyers hailing Primordus). And such act from the Great Destroyer - turning to its master - would suggest that it has a free will, and a bond, with which Primordus could easily give orders, that its general can transmit to the Destroyers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I think you and I are thinking of two different cinematics. I was thinking of Vision 2 and 3 (at least, in 2 I know they were created, 3, not sure).

I meant the Final Vision (Central Transfer Chamber), sorry for not pointing it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I'll bring up again that I don't think that the name was literally stripped, but is more of hidden and is the word that would unseal the Great Destroyer's power. As for the Ancient Dragons on a hole scale part - I don't think Primordus "arrived" and we must put into the account of the fact that the Ancient Dragons were around in pre-history. If anything, the Great Dwarf was created after Primordus. Or at a similar time, but still at such an ancient time - and would also mean that there was a vast amount of time between Primordus' fall and the birth of the Dwarves. The time difference is the biggest flaw in the belief that Primordus is the true "Great Destroyer" (of course, there could be the fact that neither Primordus or the Great Destroyer are the "true Great Destroyer").

But there's a little problem. Primordus had created the Destroyers and the Great Destroyers before he went to sleep. After all he couldn't do it while he was sleeping/encased in that stone (can't use his breath to corrupt/give life to stone). The question is, how did the Great Destroyer we know, get to the Central Transfer Chamber? I would like to point out, that the Great Dwarf fought either the Great Destroyer or Primordus. If he fought Primordus, then the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers were present at that time, and it is 95% that they fought where Primordus was "entombed".
If he fought with only the Great Destroyer, then Primordus was asleep. The other question is, where did they fight they last battle? In Primordus' 'chamber' or elsewhere?

Free Runner · Aug 11, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

And that's the point. Sorry for stretching it (with all the Destroyers hailing Primordus). And such act from the Great Destroyer - turning to its master - would suggest that it has a free will, and a bond, with which Primordus could easily give orders, that its general can transmit to the Destroyers.

I'm sorry i seem to be straying off the main points made here. How does Primordus possibly giving orders to the Great Destroyer make Primordus the Great Destroyer? we are still on that subject arent we?

We know Primordus is the master of the Great Destroyer.

However it seems to me the point your getting at is that the Great Destroyer should be the highest chain of command, which the one we fight is not therefore it is a false Great Destroyer and the real GD is Primordus. Please do correct me if thats not what your saying.

Quote:

But there's a little problem. Primordus had created the Destroyers and the Great Destroyers before he went to sleep. After all he couldn't do it while he was sleeping/encased in that stone (can't use his breath to corrupt/give life to stone).

If you take a look at Primordus closely you will notice something is falling from his head. Little specs which fall down into the lava. And this statue apparantly "bleeds magic".

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 11, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I'm sorry i seem to be straying off the main points made here. How does Primordus possibly giving orders to the Great Destroyer make Primordus the Great Destroyer? we are still on that subject arent we?

We know Primordus is the master of the Great Destroyer.

However it seems to me the point your getting at is that the Great Destroyer should be the highest chain of command, which the one we fight is not therefore it is a false Great Destroyer and the real GD is Primordus. Please do correct me if thats not what your saying.

Absolutely. As you said, "we know Primordus is the master of the Great Destroyer". It's possible, that the Great Destroyer has a free will on its own, but it will obey and accomplish orders from only the Ancient Dragon. More precisely, it might be thinking on its own (creating a strategy for example), but it will stick to the plan/scheme its master had ordered it to achieve. Thus, it was its master's plan to "clear Tyria of life" -> such act/thought could easily give someone the title of Great Destroyer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

If you take a look at Primordus closely you will notice something is falling from his head. Little specs which fall down into the lava. And this statue apparantly "bleeds magic".

I will.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 11, 2009, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

But there's a little problem. Primordus had created the Destroyers and the Great Destroyers before he went to sleep. After all he couldn't do it while he was sleeping/encased in that stone (can't use his breath to corrupt/give life to stone). The question is, how did the Great Destroyer we know, get to the Central Transfer Chamber? I would like to point out, that the Great Dwarf fought either the Great Destroyer or Primordus. If he fought Primordus, then the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers were present at that time, and it is 95% that they fought where Primordus was "entombed".

It is very highly possible that the "Great Destroyer" was always in that chamber, most likely sleeping itself (if it wasn't hibernating itself, why didn't it clear all life from Tyria before?) and was somehow able to remain undetected - possibly, it was underneath lava and was, while hibernating, unreachable.

Free Runner · Aug 11, 2009, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Absolutely. As you said, "we know Primordus is the master of the Great Destroyer". It's possible, that the Great Destroyer has a free will on its own, but it will obey and accomplish orders from only the Ancient Dragon. More precisely, it might be thinking on its own (creating a strategy for example), but it will stick to the plan/scheme its master had ordered it to achieve. Thus, it was its master's plan to "clear Tyria of life" -> such act/thought could easily give someone the title of Great Destroyer.

The argument that the title of the Great Destroyer should be only be given to the highest monster is very flawed. Its like how many said the Great Destroyer wasnt the real Great Destroyer because he was easy to beat. The Great Destroyer lived up to what was said about it.

And after all this i remembered something wrote in reply to someone saying they thought we didnt fight the Great Destroyer. It was somewere on the wiki (i think Linseys page) where someone said we probably didnt fight the Great Destroyer and Linsey replied saying we did fight the actual Great Destroyer but the idea behind it was we fought off a huge threat that was unveiling a bigger much more terrifying threat as a foreshadowing to GW2. I'll try and find it.